Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Shallan held her own with the Ghostbloods, after a fashion and with plenty of Lightweaving. This week, we return to Kaladin, as he and some of his men begin Shardblade training. It’s the next day!
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 44: One Form of Justice
Point of View: Kaladin
Setting: Dalinar’s warcamp, lighteyes training ground
Symbology: Spears, Chach, Nalan
IN WHICH Kaladin feels out of place; Zahel uses colorful metaphors and stones; Renarin eats lunch; Shardblade training begins for Bridge Four; Adolin gives his implicit approval; Shallan shows up on the training ground; Kaladin and Adolin get into a verbal sparring match, resulting in a draw; Shallan offhandedly bests them both and wanders off to sketch; Adolin has his arrogance handed to him on a platter, and seems to enjoy it; Kaladin is baffled. Moash reveals his bitter backstory; he reluctantly agrees to back off his involvement with the assassins if Kaladin will agree to meet with them once; Kaladin attempts to return to practice, but mostly stews about unfathomable questions of life, society and theology; he learns what a lastclap is and why not to practice it.
Quote of the Week
“What is she doing here?” Kaladin asked.
“Come to watch me while I spar, presumably,” Adolin said. “I usually have to kick them out.”
“Them?”
“You know. Girls who want to gawk at me while I fight. I wouldn’t mind, but if we allowed it, they’d clog the entire grounds every time I came. Nobody would be able to get any sparring done.”
Kaladin raised an eyebrow at him.
[…]
Adolin reached Shallan, who—humming to herself—passed him right by without looking. Adolin raised a hand, mouth opened to speak, as he turned and watched her walk farther across the courtyard. Her eyes were on Nall, head ardent of the practice grounds. Shallan bowed to her in reverence.
Adolin scowled, turning to jog after Shallan, passing Kaladin, who smirked at him.
“Come to watch you, I see,” Kaladin said. “Completely fascinated by you, obviously.”
“Shut up,” Adolin growled.
::gigglesnort:: I know, it’s not the most profound or significant part of the chapter, but it’s my favorite. I laugh out loud every time I read this. Including, of course, the bit I left out, where Adolin catches himself explaining to Kaladin why he let himself get betrothed to someone he’d never met. The development of Adolin’s character throughout this book is delightful, as he becomes more dimensional to the reader.
Commentary
Lots of interesting little tidbits in this chapter, so of course I won’t be able to cover them all. Still, we’ll give it a go, as will Kaladin & company.
One: a demonstration of just how much difference being an ardent makes in Vorin gender expectations. Zahel turns Kaladin and his men over to another ardent, Ivis, to go through sword forms and sparring moves—and Ivis is a woman. She keeps her hand gloved, but beyond that she simply wears the standard ardent’s flowing clothing and shaved head, and she’s apparently quite well versed in sword-fighting, up to and including Shardblade-fighting. Kaladin thinks it’s odd to see a woman holding a sword, but no one else seems to notice or care—she’s an ardent, and this is her task, so it’s all cool.
Once he gets over thinking about a woman with a sword, Kaladin finally manages to learn something. He may not like swords, but he does realize that practicing with them and learning the stances will still help when he has to fight someone who is using a sword, no matter what weapon he himself is carrying. Seems obvious, but maybe it isn’t… or Kaladin needs to practice getting over himself so he can learn other things, too!
And then Shallan shows up. Heh.
Weirdly enough, Kaladin (at this point) can see Ivis as a female ardent, but Shallan is just a lighteyes. Period. Well, I guess he can practice getting over that, too, eventually. He really has a blind spot with Shallan, though; it doesn’t even occur to him, until Teft points it out, that Shallan is perfectly positioned to be a most effective assassin. (Little do they know just how perfectly!)
Another tidbit: Moash’s grandparents were of the second nahn, which is coincidentally the same as Lirin and Kaladin. I’m not sure if this means that Moash himself was also second nahn, though, since he wasn’t actually apprenticed to them, and I think Kaladin only had the “second nahn” ranking because he was the surgeon’s apprentice. Tien was third nahn; I’m guessing Moash was also third, as (IIRC) that’s a stable rank.
Well, the rest of the good stuff fits conveniently into the other units, so let’s jump on into those.
Stormwatch
It’s the next day, finally! A whole new day!
Sprenspotting
Ah, the much-debated gloryspren, which fades into existence near Moash’s head when he first picks up the Shardblade. In this case, it seems drawn to his feelings of elation at actually doing something he had dreamed of, and never imagined he’d ever, ever be allowed to do. Given the occasions on which we’ve seen them, I’m now convinced the term “gloryspren” is a good choice. You just have to take into account the multiple definitions of “glory.”
Sylphrena. I’m not quite sure what I need to say about her, except that once again, she and Kaladin are talking at cross-purposes and not making much progress. She doesn’t ask Kaladin not to pick up the Blade, but she does thank him for not doing so. She agrees (I think!) with the men who are giving Kaladin a hard time about taking himself and his job too seriously, but then she’s distracted at the wrong time. I get chills over this:
Kaladin sighed, turning to grab his sword, and came face-to-face with Syl hovering behind him. Her tiny eyes had gone wide, hands as fists to her sides.
“What did you just do?” she demanded. “I only heard the last part.”
“Moash was involved,” Kaladin whispered. “I need to follow this through, Syl. If someone is trying to kill the king, it’s my job to investigate them.”
“Oh.” She frowned. “I felt something. Something else.” She shook her head. “Kaladin, this is dangerous. We should go to Dalinar.”
The emphasis there is mine, because that’s curious. What did she feel? Kaladin agreeing to meet with Moash’s associates? His impulse to tell Dalinar about Moash? His feeling of defeat when he had to decide which course was right, and decided that Bridge-hood loyalty was more important than telling his superior officer the truth?
The worst part comes next, when he gets wound around the axle on the conflicts between social expectations and pseudo-theological contradictions, cycling around to the central conflict of his own life—whether it’s possible to kill in order to protect, or whether it’s possible to protect without killing, and what is the Right thing to do. The more he thrashes around in this mess, the more miserable he makes both himself and Syl. He excels at creating false dichotomies, and also at refusing to listen to Syl when she says things he doesn’t want to hear.
Haven’t We Met Somewhere Before?
Well, hello there, Zahel of the colorful metaphors and colorful stones, reflecting that world where everything is about color. (I still can’t quite believe I didn’t catch this on my first read; in hindsight it’s totally obvious. I was expecting to find Heralds hiding in plain sight, so I just wrote off all his quirks as features of ancient history… not features of another history altogether. I still want him to turn out to be Ishar, though. Please?)
Something I’d like to research in Warbreaker is his attitude regarding social/class issues. Here, he’s mostly disgusted that Vorin society has built-in restrictions on who can learn sword-fighting based on their birth. Unlike Vorin tradition, Zahel considers a sword, however valuable, to be just a tool. Did he always feel that way? Clearly I need a reread… but we’ll finish Words of Radiance first, eh?
Heraldic Symbolism
Chach, as the Guard, makes perfect sense for this chapter’s general content, which focuses on the preparation of Kaladin and his men to best guard Dalinar and his family. Nalan, as the Judge, makes sense for the conversations between Moash and Kaladin and between Kaladin and Syl, and reflects the chapter title as well. What’s most interesting to me is the conflict between the two; Moash’s attitude toward Elhokar is set as a blatant parallel to Kaladin’s attitude toward Amaram, and Kaladin claims that killing Amaram would be “one form of justice.” By that reasoning, though, Moash killing Elhokar would also be “one form of justice”—but in direct opposition to their duty to protect and guard him. Moash brushes it off, claiming that their job is only to keep Dalinar alive, but Kaladin knows perfectly well that their job is to protect Dalinar, and Elhokar, and Adolin, and Renarin, and Navani… and so the Heralds clash.
Words of Radiants
But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious.
–From Words of Radiance, chapter 16, page 14
This one sparks as many questions as it solves. Typical. We now know that there were traditionally very few Bondsmiths, and that apparently at least one Bondsmith was generally in Urithiru during the old days. It leaves us wondering, though, whether all the Bondsmiths were bonded to the Stormfather, or whether each individual was bonded to a different superspren. I subscribe to the theory that all of them were bonded to the Stormfather—in part because of the singular form: “Their spren was understood to be specific…” Your mileage may vary.
Also, who—or what—was Madasa? I personally think it would be cool if that was their name for the time of relative peace between Desolations, though I see the Coppermind gurus assume Madasa to be a person. We have no further information—which is okay, I guess, because it probably doesn’t matter any more than a straw in a stormwind.
Shipping Wars
Adolin and Shallan FTW! I love the way she throws him for a loop—doing what he expects, but then, well, not what he expects—and he loves it. I’ve always enjoyed the way she simply can’t behave like a proper Vorin lady, and that very difference is what repeatedly takes him off guard and makes him see her as a real, and very interesting, person.
Just Sayin’
There are a bunch of goodies in this chapter. “Like a chull in a dining hall.” That’s… descriptive!
“Their eyes followed that Blade as they’d follow a gorgeous woman taking off her glove.” Aside from an obviously darkeyes mentality, because lighteyes would be appalled at her wearing a glove in the first place, this is cute.
We have a couple of those Herald-curses: “Kelek’s breath” and “Nalan’s hand”—and I still don’t know if there’s supposed to be any significance about the Herald and the breath/hand/eye/ whatever.
And of course, there’s “You’ve got red on your ears”—which isn’t actually a Rosharan saying; it’s apparently Nalthean. Much like our “chip on your shoulder,” this indicates a person with something to prove, spoiling for a fight, angry at everything and everyone. I’d never noticed before, but even though Zahel was speaking specifically to Kaladin, Moash is the one who says, “Can you blame us?”
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when we go back in time three years, to a relatively good day at the fair.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. With Sasquan 2015 only eight weeks away, it’s not too late to become a member—or even join the staff! There are rumors of especially good Con Suite and Staff Den provisioning; possibly even bacon chocolate chip cookies. Look for Wetlander at Registration—she’d really like to meet you there.
The Adolin stalling a Shallan determined to ignore him while Kaladin runs behind to antagonize him furthermore was a priceless scene. I absolutely love how Adolin spontaneously starts to open-up to Kaladin of all people… When asked the same question by Jakamav in an earlier chapter, he simply brushed it off, but to Kaladin, he actually tells the truth: he can’t make it work with girls. He doesn’t know how to make them want to be with him and yeah, after a few years spent being baffled by it, it is starting to wear down on his personal self-confidence.
I also loved how Kaladin dismiss Shallan as a frivolous lighteyed until Teft points out to him she may very well the perfect assassin. From there on, Kaladin will keep a special eye on Shallan and will draw all sort of conclusions on her.
I disagreed on Kaladin’s insistence at protecting Moash. He failed in trying to acknowledge the true threat he presented.
Another interesting tip-bit we had in this chapter comes from Shallan. When asked by Adolin if she was planning to draw him, she blalantly responds she does not need to as the drawings of his Shards were quite up to date, thanks to his mother. Alright. THE mother. The one Navani thinks so little of. She made drawings of Adolin’s Plate which came from her family. She drafted their history, so no doubt that Plate was intended for Adolin since probably birth, but how about his Blade? Adolin’s mother could not have drawn his Blade as he won it after her death. So this leads me to ask myself the following questions, was Shshshsh an artist as Shallan seemed to approved of her work, which would explain why Navani thinks her dumb and who made the drawing of Adolin’s Blade? Who added it to his file? And the fun one, where does the Blade come from? Is it foreign? Just a few fun thoughts.
I never noticed any phrases in Warbreaker that used colours/flowers like Zahel does so when he keeps using them it makes the dialogue seem a bit forced to me. It seems Brandon is trying to shoehorn in Nalthean references that don’t really belong, it reminds me of the Simpsons when Apu is in danger of being deported so he keeps trying to make himself seem more American but just comes across as oddly unnatural.
It may be just me, can anyone give some examples of people actually talking like that in Warbreaker?
My head-canon is that the game Zahel is playing with the coloured stones is a scaled-down version of Tarachin.
Also, in regards to shipping wars: I love Shallan and Adolin together, and adored the incredible cuteness of the underlined “Sigh” in Shallan’s drawing of his face.
I also (like Zahel himself) appreciate Kaladin’s acceptance of why to not bother practicing the lastclap – even though he ends up using it later on…
Edit to add:
Chocolate_Rob @@@@@ 2 – I don’t actually recall any instances of colour-based idioms being used in Warbreaker itself. I think this is evidence of the translation problem. From an in-world perspective, we read Warbreaker as translated from Nalthean to English, and we read Stormlight Archive as translated from Alethi to English. The thing is, Zahel is translating his metaphors from Nalthean to Alethi, which doesn’t always work properly. It makes sense to me that they would have colour-based idioms in Nalthean, but we don’t see them in the text because it’s been translated. I don’t know if that makes sense to anyone else, but it’s how I explain it to myself.
Not much to add – but I will just note that I get a kick out of the SIGH on the art page depicting armor/blades and, apparently, Adolin’s face. Does this ruin anyone’s image of Adolin?
@@.-@ Ruin Adolin’s image? No, not at all… I was happy to see this tiny icon and it made me yearn for a fuller drawing of Adolin, much like we have had Kaladin, Shallan and Szeth. Dare I hope Brandon would give us Adolin in book 3? I do not know how many chickens I have to sacrifice to have my wish be heard by Brandon…
As for the imagery itself, I love the inclusion of the little bangs of hair falling on his forehead as this is quite how I pictured him, with his mop of persistently unruly hair. I have always imagined Adolin with a messy hair style akin to kids nowaday for when he bothers to put whatever passes as a hair styling product on Roshar, but naturally, they kind of fall in every direction.
How did it ruin your perception?
Warbreaker reread. Yes, please!!!!
I really liked this chapter, and I also never pegged Zahel as being from Nalt until my second reading.
The Kaladin / Adolin bromance works really well. I like their tentative friendship and would hate to see Shallan come between them.
I also echo Gepeto in wondering who exactly and when drew Adolin’s shards. It seems inconsistent.
Syl is a bit annoying in this chapter (and many others) by being either vague or distracted at the worst times. While I can somewhat justify the vagueness somewhat by her bond being weaker than Pattern’s, it is still annoying and the distraction even more so. I also have to disagree a bit with Alice about Kaladin creating false dichotomies, I found his questions / musings about morality very interesting and I really wanted to hear Syls answers in regards to honor in enemies. The way I see it, if Syl agrees then it’s honorable, if she does not, then it is not. Seems a bit weak to me.
Lastly, I can understand Kaladin not going against Moash, the bonds they built in the first book are very strong. And he can really relate. I can’t even imagine how he feels when he also learns that Roshone’s the one behind it all. I mean, what’s more honorable – turning a friend in for a justifiable desire for revenge or slowing things down while you gather more information. I think he really took the more honorable approach in this case.
@@@@@jeremyguebert #3 – that’s a really interesting way of looking at why the outworld characters would sound different in these books. Never would have thought of it that way myself, but I like it.
Now I have to go back to Warbreaker and remind myself who Ishar is. I always assumed that Zahel was Vasher based on Nightblood showing up. Although if it’s Vasher then where is Vivenna?
@7 Ishar was a Herald and Zahel is Vasher. Alice just wants Zahel/Vasher/many-other-names to be Ishar as well.
@@@@@crapaflapnasti #8 – Ahh. That makes much more sense. Thanks!
I’ll start by saying how much I’ve been enjoying this reread, although I’m usually content to quietly observe the weekly goings on. Recent words of Alice’s, however, have encouraged me to try to jump in and participate. So, without further ado…
Has anyone considered that Dalinar’s ability to lastclap is directly related to him being a Bondsmith? I’m thinking his being able to catch the chasmfiend claw in WoK and now the shardblade in WoR sound like the surge of adhesion at play. I wonder how long Dalinar has been becoming the very thing he has been looking for. Neat.
Would Moash be of the third nahn if it was his grandparents that were second nahn? I’m not really clear on how that works, outside of apprenticeship. When it comes to family, wouldn’t it be generational, making him of the fourth nahn?
When Syl says that she felt “something else” I took it that she felt the real reason Kal decides to go along with Moash. Kal didn’t do it because he was investigating him, he went along because he couldn’t bring himself to go against a member of bridge 4, and was compromising himself because of it. In any case, whatever she felt scared her, and his answer didn’t match what she was feeling.
I believe that all of the Bondsmiths were bonded to the Stormfather because of the same sentence. It seemed to clearly reference one specific spren for the entire order, not just a specific type of spren. As I understand it, each order has a specific spren type anyway, so it wouldn’t really bear mentioning if that was what the sentence meant.
And I am also planning to reread Warbreaker [and Elantris] at some time in the [hopefully] near future. At least before SA Book 3 comes out. At this time I am trying to get through the last couple of Song of Ice and Fire books and keep up with the reread here, so some things just have to wait, I guess.
Gepeto @1 – I disagree with Kaladin, too. I’m not convinced he should have gone to Dalinar on the spot – not without getting more information — but he needed to do more than he did. He protected Moash at the expense of both honor and justice, while he could have maintained honor and justice, and perhaps even gotten some kind of justice for Moash’s grandparents, by going to Dalinar in confidence. But he bears the weight of everything on his own shoulders, and he’s neither wise enough nor strong enough to carry it. (I’m not saying I don’t understand this trait – I totally do – but from the outside it’s easy to see areas in which he takes responsibilities which simply are not his to take.)
Also – good catch on Adolin’s mother not being the one to draw his Blade, since she’d been dead for some years before he won it. I suppose it would be logical that, with good renditions of his Plate already, someone in Dalinar’s household was tasked with providing an equally good drawing of his new Blade, and Shallan casually attributed both to his mother… FWIW, though, I’m pretty sure the Blade was “domestic.” Tinalar entered the duel at least partly in an attempt to embarrass Dalinar by beating his son and winning the Plate from him, which make him much more likely to be an Alethi from a rival princedom than a foreigner.
Jeremy @3 and sillyslovene @@.-@ – it seems like there’s a story behind the “Sigh” but I don’t remember what it is. I’ll have to go look it up. It’s so cute. Also – the drawing of Adolin fits much better with my mental image of Adolin’s face than most others I’ve seen (particularly the one on the Coppermind, which just doesn’t work for me). And like Gepeto @5, I think the messy, sweaty bangs inside the helmet are absolutely right.
VladZ @6 – My current plan is to launch a Warbreaker reread when we finish WoR. It might move a little faster, I don’t know yet, but that’s my plan unless the PTB at Tor decide they don’t want it. :) And I, too, like the developing brotherhood (even though it will take a long time for them to recognize it) between Kaladin and Adolin. I think they’re good for each other, or will be eventually. It’s good to have a friend who’s got your back but will take the mickey out of you when you need it.
I’ll have to explain more clearly what I meant by Kaladin’s false dichotomies, but… not now.
crapaflapnasti @8 – that’s about the size of it… I want Zahel = Vasher = Ishar. Because it would be cool.
Misting Blue @10 – Well, I’m glad you jumped in, because now I’m sitting here with my mouth hanging open. It never crossed my mind that the lastclap could be enhanced/enabled by Adhesion, but it makes so much sense. I know there’s been discussion that some nascent Surgebinding could have come into play in the chasmfiend hunt, but now that I think on it, it seems probable that both of them are part of his developing Bondsmith skills.
I’m not entirely sure how the nahns work or where the break-points are, but Brandon talked about “stable ranks” where the children have the same rank as their parents. The implication, as I read it, was that the first and second nahn (or dahn) are “unstable”, so that the children are one level down except for the direct heir – or maybe he only gains the rank when the parent dies? Anyway, I think third nahn is a stable rank, but I’m not 100% sure on that.
Your interpretation of Syl’s “something else” is very much what I suspect, as well. She felt him compromising his honor – oddly enough, in the name of loyalty. Poor Kaladin.
@5 – Gepeto – didn’t ruin my imagined feeling about him at all. I just know that sometimes when authors or others (read: illustrators for book covers, tv producers, or movie castings, etc) actually “canonize” (in quotes because it is debatable on whether or not it does that, and of course people are free to imagine whatever they wish) what a character looks like, sometimes it throws readers for a loop as it doesn’t accord with how they have imagined/pictured the character. Thus, in some ways authors/creators may tend to shy away from doing so (YMMV on how often and why or why not), for instance we do have images of Kaladin and other main characters in this book (not talking about cover art, but internal pages like this one), but many are from far away, or silhouetted, etc.
For those reasons, I find it interesting that this is found in an in-universe article – i.e. an illustration that is drawn by Shallan and thus represents, if not Adolin, her perception of him. Thus, this picture has been “canonized” even more so than, say, Kaladin or Shallan as pictured in the cover art produced by Whelan. In those cases, there is still a divide that can be put in place saying that is an external viewpoint (not necessarily in universe). As well, Brandon, while perhaps having some say in the process, might not have final veto over such images, due to publishing issues, etc. This image though is one that, on the inside of the book, must have had his full approval well before publication, and probably was done in close consultation with the illustrator (can’t remember off the top of my head which artist did this one, cause didn’t he have 2 or three working on this book – one doing maps, one doing sketches?).
Really, the comment was all about starting conversations :) I echo your thoughts about wondering if we will get further, more fully developed images of our characters.
@@@@@ Misting Blue
I had those same thoughts regarding Dalinar and the surge of Adhesion. Later in the book, when he breathes in storm light, he observes how familiar it feels. It’s possible Dalinar drained the storm light from Elhokar’s shards, fracturing the gems, when he used the last clap on the chasm fiend.
FWIW, Ben McSweeney does the “Shallan’s Sketchbook” drawings – and I’m pretty sure it’s all very much in collaboration.
@10 It makes so much sense that someone who can manipulate the surge of Adhesion could be unnaturally extranaturally skilled at the Last Clap. Good catch!
@13 Wouldn’t it be ironic that the cracked gems were Dalinar’s fault after all? I like it.
Kaladin and Dalinar (supposedly) both have Adhesion and both pull off a Lastclap except that Kaladin was exhausted and out of Stormlight at the time.
All, I do not believe the “sigh” written in the drawing is anything more that a teenager in love. Nevertheless, I do not have Wetlandernw”s beta reading notes have and accessible database of WoB and WoP.
Misting Blue @10: I agree with your reasoning on the cause of what Syl feels.
For somebody who grew up in an isolated rural community and who had no prior experience with dating, Shallan is acquitting herself well in her pursuit of Adolin. I think she took some of the lesson’s Tyn taught her about the con game and applied it to courtship. (If I were a romantic cynic, I would say that in RL courtship is the other side of the same coin as a con.)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Nothing to add, just wanted to say this is a fun chapter for me. Another great insight re: lastclap and Dalinar’s surgebinding. Thanks for a great chapter summary and fun discussion! I didn’t notice the Sigh! on the illustration, so thanks for that especially, Alice – love it!
Alice – bacon chocolate chip cookies – I want the recipe please!!!
Just looked at the illustration and am wondering, whose swords are those of the two warriors fighting – they aren’t the king’s.
It’s funny, although Kaladin hides it behind his racism against lighteyes, I think he simply trusted Shallan not to be an assassin based on their first interactions. Sure once Teft mentions it, he “thinks” of her as a potential threat and acts accordingly, but his gut instinct wasn’t to see her that way and he has to actually turn his thoughts around to that. Which doesn’t seem like his general racism to me, more just a simple reaction to the fact that, so far, their interactions have not really been what you would expect of an assassin trying to get close to a target and that target’s bodyguard (admittedly, that is a hole in his screening, but…comedic shenanigans of that level are pretty disarming).
And Shallan is great in this chapter, playing off how Adolin expects things to go. I may not be behind them as a ship, but it was still pretty funny stuff, and it’s nice to see Adolin and Kaladin thawing towards each other as well – friendly bickering is progress!
@11: I agree about your commentary on Kaladin. Whereas going to Dalinar straight away would have been premature, letting the threat unchecked was foolish. I can understand why he did it and why his internal dilemma made him side with Graves, but I still do not approve.
As for Adolin’s Blade, whereas I agree with your assessment someone must have drawn it, it made me wonder why nobody bothered to draw the king’s shards……… The Kohlin’s household does not seem to harbor many artists. As for Shshshsh, why did she bothered to draw her young son’s future Plate years before he was even old enough to put it on? It is strange and peculiar. As for the Blade, Tinalar may have been Alethi, but he could have won the Blade during a border skirmish. The reason I believe the Blade may be foreign is linked to a recent WoB where Brandon stated the names of Shardblades were often pass down from one generation to another, thus implying Dalinar was not the one to name Oathbringer. It also explains why Sadeas did not rename the Blade, most likely it has been within Alethkar for a long time and has earned its name a long time ago. The same cannot be said about Adolin’s Blade. If it had a famous name, surely he would have kept it, but he didn’t. This leads me to believe that particular Blade was new to Alethkar, it did not have a name tradition. Also, Dalinar, in his visions did see Stonewards, Windrunners and probably Dustbringers give up their Blades. He comments on how many Blades seemed to be missing… What if all orders did not leave their Blades behind? Adolin’s sure look like the only Edgedancer Blade around, whereas we have a few Dustbringer Blades (Firestorm and Sunraiser).
These are pure wild speculation. The bit I loved about it though is the implication of the late Brightness Kohlin to have been an artist, a trait she may have passed down in part to her eldest son as “crafting a style out of nothing to fit his mood” does indicate some artistic inclination. There is also the fact Adolin was genuinely impressed by Shallan’s drawing. He was interested and he did look at it thoroughly. Could Adolin have an eye for art? Could it come from his mother as nobody else in the Kohlin household seem to have any eye for it. It strangely fit within his character and it makes him have something in common with Shallan.
I do not like the picture of Adolin in the Coppermint either. In fact, I do not like most art done on Adolin. I find the drawings inaccurate: either he looks too old or too feminine or too vain. The tiny icon is just perfect with, as you say, his sweaty bang and the friendly smile we are guessing he has. Adolin is supposed to be friendly, charming, handsome, youthful with unruly hair.
Sticking my head out of my lurker shell for a minute… Of all the probably more interesting tidbits to latch onto, my attention has nevertheless become fixated on
Was Tien third nahn? I thought all of Kaladin’s family was second nahn? (Now that you’ve mentioned it, I’m not actually sure what nahn Tien was, is that from a WoB?) I’d just assumed they were all second based on Hesina’s comment:
AndrewHB @17 – “I do not believe the “sigh” written in the drawing is anything more that a teenager in love.” I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to imply otherwise, in-world. The “story behind it” is just a funny little thing about how it came to be there in Ben’s drawing.
mnmama @18 – I’m not the one making the cookies. :D Someone on the Sasquan staff was talking about a little restaurant near the convention center which features them, and several of us set up a clamor for having them in the staff den. The response was favorable, so I hope it happens! Otherwise, I’ll have to go find the restaurant on my own.
Also @19 – I’m guessing the raised one is Adolin’s? The other one looks a little bit like Oathbringer, but I don’t think it is. Best guess, it’s Renarin’s; there’s a scene where Shallan is sketching them while Adolin is showing Renarin some stances.
And… now I feel silly for not having looked this up earlier. Regarding the drawings of Adolin’s Shards, the text actually says, “the sketches of your Plate are quite complete, thanks to your mother.” She doesn’t actually mention his Blade in that setting.
arphareader @22 – Yeah, probably take that with a grain of salt; it’s not canon. I’m extrapolating based on something I just read about how first and second nahn are exempt from military conscription, but Tien was “fair game” when Roshone was giving people to Amaram, combined with something else about the higher ranks being unstable… so I guessed that maybe he was third nahn. Hesina was first nahn before she married Lirin, for what that’s worth.
@23: Oh gee… I apologized. I was convinced she said Shards and not Plate. I felt like an idiot, so thanks for correcting me.
@12: As to characters descriptions versus illustrators interpretations versus reader’s personal imagery… I believe we could give the same physical description of a same character to 10 readers and each would come up with a different mental image. I personally try to stay as close to canon as possible with my personal imagery, but surely I have gotten a few characters wrong in the process. In the case of Adolin, I do have an idea as to what his “mop of golden hair” look like, but truth to be said, all artists I have stumbled upon on the Internet have a different vision as none correlates with mine.
Has anyone also noticed how Brandon uses physical description for his characters? For instance, how many quotes do we have on Adolin being blond or on his hair being messy? Plenty. In fact, each time Dalinar looks at his son, it seems he comments on his hairdo. We also know he is slightly smaller than Dalinar, but we know next to nothing about Renarin. We have close to no physical description. Is he tall? Is he not tall? We have no idea, but the fandom tends to draw him several inches smaller than his brother which does not make sense to me. I tend to see as about Adolin’s height, but with a thin, small stature, no muscles and a face looking younger than his years.
Dalinar is repetitively described as not being handsome. Shallan calls his face “unfortunate” and it is stated nobody had ever called him handsome, even in his youth. Yet, most fan arts depicts Dalinar as a handsome man… Strange. This is another one I wish to see into the next book. In fact, a drawing of the father and his two sons would be great.
As for Kaladin, I only recall him being described as tall with wavy/curly dark brown (or black) hair. He does comment on his growing musculature back in WoK, whereas most art depicts him as rather thin.
Shallan’s hair color is often mentioned as well as her freckles and her small, willowy stature. Of all characters, she is the one where I find the art the most accurate. The picture in WoR is simply gorgeous and it does fit the physical in-book description of Shallan perfectly.
Not sure I see the issue with him not deciding to turn in his friend. Vengeance is never a good reason to kill your ruler. I would also love a warbreaker reread. On Dalinar being a bondsmith, don’t you need some interaction with a spren before that happens? If memory serves he didn’t get any spren interaction until he talked to the stormfather at the end of the book.Can you be using powers before that happens? Both Syl and pattern I think appeared before their partners used powers I think…
Kal was using powers before he was formally introduced to Syl and said the Words. We saw that in rhe first book. Dalinar interacted with the stormfather before he said the words too. He sent Dalinar the prophetic dreams. Knowing that, it’s possible that he could have been using adhesion unknowingly just like Kal was using his powers.
Is it a good idea to learn all 10 stances in the first lesson?
Is there a correspondence between herald sayings and the body focus in the essences table in the appendix?
Zahel’s red ears saying reminds me of the German saying green behind the ears, which seems to be wet behind the ears in English.
@24
I’ve also wondered why no one comments on Renarin’s hair. If the blend of blond and black hair is hereditary from both their parents then Renarin’s hair should look like Adeline’s.
@8: Not exactly… Brandon has stated via a WoB Renarin did not get as much blond as Adolin. Adolin being so blond seems to be the exception as most interbreed marriage on Roshar yields offspring with black hair and a few odd locks. It is probably why so many characters comment on it: Adolin does stand out and his golden head is not common.
I recall someone asking if the amount of blond Adolin received versus Renarin meant anything and Brandon answered it simply was genetic. They are both Dalinar’s sons and the rules of hazard made it Adolin physically takes a lot after his mother.
Still, whereas we do know Renarin is mostly black haired, we still do not know much else… What color are his eyes? His height? Is he handsome like his brother or ugly like his father or somewhere in between (my personal guess)? Minus the fact he has no physical built du to his lack of physical exertion, does he physically look like Dalinar, much like it is imply Adolin looks like his mother?
I wonder why Brandon described some characters and others, not. Heck, even Kaladin comments on Adolin’s physical look, but he never says a thing on Renarin apart from him having delicate, slender hands.
Re what characters look like: The picture Shallan on the inside cover of WoR looks (at least to me) of a young Nicole Kidman.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Wow. First comment ever! I don’t know why, but whenever I read a scene with Kaladin and Adolin, I always picture Adolin way taller than Kaladin. Don’t have a lot of time, but I’ll finish with this: Lopen is a Willshaper. Chew on that!
Alice @Quote of the Week
The part of that conversation that made me laugh was the bit right below where you left off in your quote:
I like the fact they are at a stage in their relationship when they can lob zingers at each other without serious buildup of animosity. Kaladin clearly felt Adolin had won that round (that picture Adolin drew of the kind of lady Kaladin is likely to attract in contrast to Shallan is pretty devastating) … until he saw Shallan ignore Adolin and then he got his zinger in.
All in all, a pretty enjoyable confrontation.
@@@@@ 32 Alisonwonderland
You’re right. I’m probably dating myself a bit, but their 1 part friendly 9 parts snark relationship sort of reminds me of Buffy and Cordelia in the early seasons of Buffy The Vampire Slayer.
They both have points, and they don’t truly hate each other, but they can really really get on each other’s nerves.
I know Vivenna is not on Roshar (I can’t find the WoB), but I think it would have been cool if she was an ardent with a sword.
According to this WoB, it appears Dalinar’s Lastclap and the Chasmfiend Hunt is a nontrivial connection to make.
Xaladin @34 – the link appears to be broken; it just takes me to the 17th Shard search form. What did you enter as search criteria?
I second Alice. I do not recall reading this specific WoB. Xaladin, would you be able to paste it over here? I have read the commentary above linking Dalinar (and later on Kaladin’s) lastclap to the surge of adhesion. As for the chasmfiend hunt, I have always suspected something amiss was happening to Dalinar….
I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m stoked about the possibility that the next book will have Dinar’s back story.
Marbelcal @37 – I am too! While I am interested in Szeth’s and Eshonai’s backstories, I’m really interested in Dalinar’s, to the point of almost obsessive curiosity. :) I hope it works out that way.
I second. I too am overly excited over the possibility to read Dalinar’s flashback. He is the only aforementioned character I have interest in reading more about via the flashbacks. The earliest, the best. Sadly, the truth is there are many other characters I would rather read than those Brandon has said we would read about.
I won’t catagorize my desire to read more about the Blackthorn as a physical need per se, but I do find myself currently languishing in the hell that is waiting for the next books to come out in literally all of the various series that I am currently reading (worst part is more than half of said books don’t even had specific release dates yet).
SA 3 ranks very highly on said list with Kingkiller Chronicles day three being perhaps the only one I am less patiently waiting for.
This is just a thought for those of us who are waiting anxiously for the next installment of the SA series, of whatever flashback character. Read his other books that you may have missed. I came to Sanderson via the Mistborn trilogy before I read the SA books. I subsequently read the Warbreaker to get some background on Zahel/Vasher. I have now just finished 2 novellas, Shadows for Silence, and the Emperor’s Soul. These are wonderful, totally engrossing, and highly imaginative works. Sanderson just keeps creating new worlds, new magical systems, engrossing stories, and interesting characters with the seeming greatest of ease. All the above books have some connective threads. Emperor’s Soul even has a discussion, at one point, of the of the physical, cognitive, and spiritual realms. The themes of art and novelty as well as the uniqueness of personality come to the fore as a master forger is tasked with recreating and reanimating the personality of the emperor who lies in a vegetative state after a very serious head wound, using a specially crafted magical stamp. She has to come to a deep understanding of his personality in order to accomplish her task and to avoid execution for her theft and forgery of a famous painting. That understanding brings empathy, if not love, for her subject which leads to an internal conflict between fleeing for her life while she can and finishing her task.
@15
“Good catch”?
[groan]
That is all. :-)
I’m excited about the possible Warbreaker reread. But I’m an audiobooker and I’m decidedly not excited about listening to Lightsong’s awful interpretation by the voice performer.
@41 The latest short stories aren’t on audiobook and it’s killing me. I usually buy in both formats (also ebook), but usually don’t have time to sit with books. Maybe I’ll be able to nock them out over the U.S. Independence Day weekend.
A little late to the party, with a few comments…
@19 – I think the sword on the viewer’s left is Adolin’s sword, like Alice said in her comment @23. Adolin describes his sword in Chapter 14 as such:
“Its surface was austerely smooth, long, sinuous like an eel, with ridges at the back like glowing crystals. Shaped like a larger version of a standard longsword, it bore some resemblance to the enormous, two-handed broadswords he’d seen Horneaters wield.” (WoR, Chapter 14)
I think the ridges at the back of the Blade held by the swordsman on the bottom of the page, on the viewer’s left, has ridges that could look like crystals. And the blade appears long and somewhat sinuous. I think that is the best guess, but it could just be any other Blade for all we know.
@21 – Not all swords were named. Adolin notes this as well, in WoR Chapter 14: “Adolin had never named his Shardblade. Some did, some didn’t. “
As to your speculation about the origin of the Shardblades, what evidence is there that Firestorm and Sunraiser were the former swords/spren of Dustbringers? I’ve seen some on 17th Shard speculate on that possibility due to the appearance of Firestorm, but I have some problems accepting that as anything more than just fun guesses.
For one, I don’t think both Firestorm and Sunraiser should be grouped together; Firestorm looks like it has a flame theme, but I don’t recall Sunraiser being described as anything other than “long and thin with a large crossguard…etched up the sides with the ten fundamental glyphs.” (WoK, Chapter 13). No flames or fire theme at all.
(Edit: Actually, after looking again at the crossguard of Sunraiser in the picture above, I could argue the crossguard looks more like thorny vines than fire. More of a focus on the “raiser” portion of the name, than the “Sun” part. Why not speculate that Sunraiser is an Edgedancer Blade?)
Second, I think the final outer appearance of a Shardblade doesn’t necessarily represent the type of spren. Adolin’s blade apparently is from an Edgedancer spren, but the Shardblade itself isn’t described as looking like a vine or plant. The manifestation of the Blade from mist resembles vines growing [“The white fog appeared –manifesting as little vines sprouting in the air – before snapping into the form of a Shardblade (WoR, Chapter 50)], but the final Blade doesn’t overly appear to resemble vines or a plant that I can tell.
I just think we should be careful drawing conclusions or forming definitive opinions based on speculation or questionable/unreliable information.
(Related: Yes, I still caution accepting as fact that Renarin is a Truthwatcher until we have hard evidence –in book or Word of Brandon- that proves it. No, I don’t think Renarin just labeling himself as one –without the reader hearing from his spren, Hoid or any reliable narrator- as hard evidence. I’m cool with being proven wrong; I just want proof.)
@44: I may have express myself badly. I did not mean to state that both Firestorm and Sunraiser were Dustbringer’s Blades: I meant to state I thought they may be. I was expressing a mere opinion and since we do not have much to grab on (you are absolutely right in stating it), it remains in the realm of wild speculation. I should have made that clearer in my previous post, so I apologized if I have mislead you.
The evidence I have was based on their description. Firestorm sure looked as if it were made of flames and since we do know, dixit Adolin’s Blade, the Blades appearances are linked to their order, it seems a valid speculation. One of the reasons Adolin’s Blade was associated with the order of Edgedancer (people have speculated about it long before Brandon confirmed it) was because the crystals along the edge, a gem associated with this order. Based on this fact, it is easy to extrapolate Blades of a same order would retain a similar appearances: I would thus expect all Edgedancer’s Blade to be sinuous or sinuous-like. As for Sunraiser, I appear to have made a mistake. I thought it too was made of flames, but you are rightly corrected me. It thus seemed to be from a different order, my new wild guess being Windrunners.
My purpose in trying to link Blades to order is to try to identify if Adolin’s Blade is special in any case. It is yet another vain attempt to push for the “Adolin will revive his Blade” theory.
As for Adolin not naming his Blade, he did state not everyone named theirs. Yet, Brandon recently said many Blades come with a history and their names are being carried down from one owner to the other. He thus implied Dalinar did not name Oathbringer: the Blade came with this name. It also explains why Sadeas kept the name. He fact Adolin did not name his implies this specific Blade did not have such a long history within the Alethkar families as he would have been hard-pressed to maintain such a tradition. If it did, then surely he would have kept the name. He didn’t, which leads me to speculate the Blade may have been a recent acquisition in Alethkar. It may be foreign and won in a border skirmish.
@43 I know I’m in the minority, but I enjoyed the narrator’s Lightsong. The “surfer bum” just seemed to fit to me.
That being said, I’d still love Michael Kramer and Kate Reading to record a version of it.
@46 The audio book was my first introduction to Warbreaker, so I always think of Lightsong as the “surfer bum,” which seems to fit his personality pretty well. If you’re looking for a different reading, the Graphic Audio version is pretty good as well (if sound effects and a full cast are your thing).
@6 I totally agree!
I read the rereads during the last 2 days, starting with chapter 88 and then going on from the beginning. Until now I think Kaladin gets a lot of critic throughout the discussion, while Shallan is receiving endless “poor Shallan”. Totally unfair! In my opinion both are highly traumatized and make mistakes from the reader’s all knowing point of view (I know, now it’s too late, reread is essentially done). What really tickled me reading WoR the first time -I think two years ago – and now also doing the rereads, is the naivity of Syl. And its not just the weakened bond at this state. She either is sulky, doesn’t state her thoughts or makes a change of topic. And when Kaladin makes a decision she doesn’t like, she complains. I really cannot relate to the notion that decisions which Syl labels as “right” are really right. Kaladin has much more complex thinking, though he is obviously biased from his experiences. Is the Nahel-bond every time in danger, when Syl disagrees with Kaladins decisions? That would make him quite Syls puppet. There really might be more than one truth, as Pattern is clever enough to state.
Or is there more to the Nahel-bond check to surgebinding? Is it in fact the conscience (connected to cognitive realm?) of the surgebinder which makes the spren realize that some decision is “wrong”? After all, spren are also attracted by fake emotions, as Shallan impressively demonstrates.
Another point where I have to respectfully disagree is the “parallel” of Kaladins hate to Amaram and Moashs hate towards Elhokar and the considered justice in killing the respective person. Its like comparing the Himalaya to the Appalachians or so. Amaram executed Kaladins squad and made Kaladin a slave just to obtain the shardblade Kaladin did not want (might Syl be involved in his disgust towards shards?). It would be perfectly just to kill Amaram (from the Rosharan point of view as well as from the modern one in many countries with death penalty still active (e.g. the US), modern pov of course would make the state the executor, not Kaladin)! Elhokars “crime” was just indecisiveness. He was fooled by Roshone and imprisoned Moashs grandparents until the trial during which time they died, being old people. Elhokars fault was to forget about the trial or getting distracted (cannot remember right now)- which would also today be a minor slip from a king involved in a war and intruiges. So what would be the “just” penalty for Elhokar? Certainly not death!
Perhaps at this point, Kaladin would be more apt as a skybreaker and not as windrunner. But Syl was attracted to him, not the other way around.